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Thread Author: 1983parrothead
Thread ID: 2982
Thread Info
There are 6 posts in this thread, and it has been viewed 1551 times.
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Clones, tributes or neither?
1983parrothead
Usually when I encounter a game that is either slightly well-known or not, most people often compare them to what popularized the genres while ignoring or not even appreciating about the innovations it has.

Art of Fighting for example, is it a fighting game? Yes! Is it a Street Fighter II clone? Well there are some similarities, but the survey said NO! It introduced a lot of things to the genre that were carried on to others, like:

* First to dash backwards.
* First to have unlockable moves (e.g. Haoh Sho Ko Ken).
* First to have desperation moves (e.g. Haoh Sho Ko Ken).
* First to have a zooming view.
* First to have taunts that effect opponents.
* First to have an energy bar and energy charging for desperation moves.
* First to have moves that can't be blocked.

Many consider Ryo Sakazaki a clone of Ryu from the SF series, because of the gi outfit, fireballs and I guess a flying uppercut. Even though Ryo was created by the same creator of Ryu, some people still like Ryu better, because he is more original. However, ever heard of the character Ryuhi from the Hiryu no Ken franchise that started in 1985 with Shanghai Kid? He has a similar name, was the first to have a spinning kick and he even shot fireballs before Ryu did. Ryu and Ken were also influenced by the Karate Champ fighters from 1984, who also wear gi outfits. For Dan Hibiki, not only he is a cross between Ryo and Robert, but while we already know about Ryo, Robert was influenced by Steven Seagal.

Even when SFII took some ideas from the past, such as the hidden moves and motion controls of Martech's Brian Jacks Uchi Mata, the combo system of Culture Brain's Shanghai Kid, and the multiple playable character selection of Konami's Galactic Warriors, many still don't care while they praise SFII because back then they thought it was the first, while their childhood memories were created in front of it. My big sister told me that opinions can be like a--holes, especially when you don't agree with them at all.

One game that's really bothering me a lot is Namco's Tekken. One reason why I see a lot of people appreciating it more than Sega's founder of the 3D fighting genre, Virtua Fighter, is that the Guinness World Records awarded Tekken with multiple records in the Guinness World Records: Gamer's Edition 2008. These include, "First PlayStation Game to Sell Over One Million Units", "The Best Selling Fighting Series for PlayStation Consoles", and incorrectly confirming it as the "First Fighting Game To Feature Simulated 3D." If many are calling nearly every 2D fighting game released after SFII a clone of SFII, then how come I don't hear many appreciating VF more than Tekken, even though Tekken was influenced by or ripped off VF? NeoGeoNinja told me that it's because Tekken is easier to players than VF, but VF is more rewarding, especially the more effort you spend playing it. Some think it's ludicrous to like the founders more than the later ones that are less innovative, but superior.

Seeing "clone/rip-off/cheap-off/knock-off/spin-off/wannabe/imitation/whatever" comments below videos and inside reviews made me decide to create a topic about the first fighting games to do, be or have. For those of you who already saw it, I have updated it with a lot more info than before:

http://www.neogeo...ad_id=2771


For other genres, you can help discuss about them. The only other genre I have to mention right now is the basketball genre. Some people consider Data East's Dunk Dream (a.k.a. Street Slam / Street Hoop) series to be a clone of Midway's NBA Jam, while NBA Jam has some similarities to Konami's two basketball games, Super Basketball and Double Dribble, and especially Midway's own Arch Rivals. All because Dunk Dream has catchy music (perhaps the first to feature songs with lyrics), the ability to push opponents and the ability to perform different dunking moves. Dunk Dream also has no NBA license, but has international teams in the Japanese and PAL region versions, while it also has city teams in the North American version. Other things that makes it different to NBA Jam is the sprites, which are painted instead of digitized, and the slightly-overhead view (similar to Konami's basketball games, especially Double Dribble: The Playoff Edition).


It's sometimes difficult for me to tell if the games were inspired by (good), ripped off of (bad), or according to the Pickford Bros. (creators of Plok), didn't design their character after Rayman at all and just created him from scratch. In other words, similar, but not inspired nor ripped off of another at all.
Edited by 1983parrothead on 03. November 2010 00:50
 
reelmojo
1983parrothead wrote:and incorrectly confirming it as the "First Fighting Game To Feature Simulated 3D."

Seriously? While I can't be 100% sure I think that award goes to Sega, but not even for Virtua Fighter. The released a game called Dark Edge that used 2D sprites but the gameplay was completely in 3D. This makes it much more of a 3D game than the first few Tekken and VF games since they were played on a 2D plane.

And if you want to get really picky, jumping from plane to plane in Fatal Fury is technically 3D movement.

And that's just off the top of my head. You'd think Guinness would be better at fact checking.
 
1983parrothead
reelmojo wrote:
1983parrothead wrote:and incorrectly confirming it as the "First Fighting Game To Feature Simulated 3D."

Seriously? While I can't be 100% sure I think that award goes to Sega, but not even for Virtua Fighter. The released a game called Dark Edge that used 2D sprites but the gameplay was completely in 3D. This makes it much more of a 3D game than the first few Tekken and VF games since they were played on a 2D plane.

And if you want to get really picky, jumping from plane to plane in Fatal Fury is technically 3D movement.

And that's just off the top of my head. You'd think Guinness would be better at fact checking.


Dark Edge is a different kind of 3D. The first Fatal Fury allowed players to attack toward or away from the fourth wall, while some games like Taito's Typhoon Gal and Violence Fight, Kaneko's KaGeki and Power Athlete, Technos Japan's 2P mode of the FC/NES Double Dragon, and Atari's Pit-Fighter all allowed players to move in a 3D plane.

Virtua Fighter was the first fighting game to have "3D polygons". If you think the game 4D Boxing was the first, then that doesn't count, because it is a boxing game, and so is Sega's 1976 Heavyweight Champ. Boxing and even wrestling games don't count, but karate and some weapon-based sports count.
 
NeoGeoNinja
1983parrothead wrote:
One game that's really bothering me a lot is Namco's Tekken. One reason why I see a lot of people appreciating it more than Sega's founder of the 3D fighting genre, Virtua Fighter, is that the Guinness World Records awarded Tekken with multiple records in the Guinness World Records: Gamer's Edition 2008. These include, "First PlayStation Game to Sell Over One Million Units", "The Best Selling Fighting Series for PlayStation Consoles", and incorrectly confirming it as the "First Fighting Game To Feature Simulated 3D." If many are calling nearly every 2D fighting game released after SFII a clone of SFII, then how come I don't hear many appreciating VF more than Tekken, even though Tekken was influenced by or ripped off VF? NeoGeoNinja told me that it's because Tekken is easier to players than VF, but VF is more rewarding, especially the more effort you spend playing it. Some think it's ludicrous to like the founders more than the later ones that are less innovative, but superior...

IT'S DIFFICULT THOUGH...
don't you think, to really clarify which game was ACTUALLY the first proper 3D Fighting Game. I say this as I'm unsure as to who decides or indeed what it is that defines one.

IS IT... as you have BOTH already alluded to; a game that allows full 3D 'simulated' movement REGARDLESS of the visuals (i.e. 2D like Violence Fight by Taito)?
IS IT... simply the case of the game having 3D visual aspects whilst STILL being restricted to a 2D plane (i.e. Tekken 1, 2 & 3 and VF 1 & 2).
OR IS IT... simply a requirement of BOTH aspects; 3D visuals coupled with full 3D movement

It can probably be argued from this standpoint (or my standpoint!) that SoulEdge may well have been one of the first games to implement TRUE 3D movement by allowing players to move 'in and out' of the BKGD using the shoulder buttons.

HOWEVER...
I will always have to stand MY ground and say that I think it was actually (Shock! Horror!) Squaresoft & DreamFactory who pioneered the FIRST TRUE 3D fighters, at least to my knowledge. I say this as games such as: Tobal No.1 and Ehrgeiz aswell as Bushido Blade to some extent were the first fighters I played that were 3D fighters in the truest sense, allowing the fighter to move through full 3D movement whilst restricting jumping attacks to a separate button.

Once again of course, this is just my opinion...

Ninja
i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv359/NeoGeoNinja/NGNsignatureRev1.jpg
 
reelmojo
Yeah... I think it's clear that Guinness chose poor wording for that record. I'm sure they meant 3D polygonal fighting game, which of course goes to Virtua Fighter. But one look at a game like Dark Edge shows movement on the X, Y, and Z axis which by my count in three dimensions.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter... but we can all agree that whatever Guinness meant they were still wrong.

Another game that is often cited as being copied is Doom. To this day I'm still in love with the game, so I mean no disrespect, but it was far from the first FPS. Just off the top of my head both Wolfenstein (obviously) and Ken's Labyrinth came out well before it. Much like SFII though Doom popularized the genre by taking it to new heights of quality. What irks me is that for years afterward you'd still hear people calling any new FPS a "Doom game" despite sharing very few similarities outside of the first person perspective. Serious Sam is the only FPS that has gameplay that's honestly comparable to Doom and it was successful because people missed Doom's gameplay! To non-gamers or even casual gamers a game like Duke Nukem 3D may look the same as Doom, but these are the same people who would think Virtua Fighter and Street Fighter are the same thing just because they both feature a side view of two people beating on each other.
 
1983parrothead
There are three kinds of 3D: plane (e.g. Aggressors of Dark Kombat), polygons/models (e.g. Virtua Fighter) and view (e.g. SMS 3D Glasses, Famicom 3D System, Virtual Boy, 3DS, etc.)

Dark Edge has some similarities to Atari Games' Pit-Fighter, as well as some of Fatal Fury 1. If it's about moving freely on a 3D plane with zooming, while the game is viewed on its side instead of in a bird's eye view, then that is what Pit-Fighter is. Combine that with Fatal Fury 1's feature that allows players to attack back and forth between the foreground and background, and you get Dark Edge.

Now to stay on topic, the Neo-Geo beat 'em up Burning Fight may look like a Final Fight clone, but there are some differences between them. In Final Fight, when standing in front of an enemy, you have the basic "one-two-three" punching move. In Burning Fight, you either can repeatedly punch or repeatedly kick.

Another game many consider to be a clone of a popular game/franchise is Magical Kids Doropie (known outside of Japan as The Krion Conquest), compared to the original Mega Man series. It does look and play similar, but it also has cut-scenes like Tecmo's Ninja Gaiden NES trilogy. Like Burning Fight, Magical Kids Doropie also has some differences in its gameplay, like the ability to shoot upward and to select different weapons at the beginning of the game instead of beating the bosses to obtain their weapons. Instead of a password feature, you have the continue feature; however, it was removed from the North American version, most likely because back then, when Tecmo was developing Ninja Gaiden III, they were originally planning to make it easy enough for casual gamers, but the perceived popularity of difficult video games in North America caused Tecmo to release the game for the NES with a much higher difficulty level than the Japanese version.
 
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