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Thread Author: Michael Max
Thread ID: 2121
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There are 30 posts in this thread, and it has been viewed 7027 times.
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SSFIITHDR
Michael Max
I play many fighting games online, as it's my favorite (and pretty much only) genre. I usually can hold my own against online ranked competition fairly well, which is to say that I can usually win over half of my fights in games like SF4, KOFXII, Tekken 6, MK vs. DCU etc. But for some reason the competition seems ABSURD in ssf2hdr! I get kicked around like Richard Simmons at an NRA convention. It's like everyone on there can pull off very fast, accurate combos, poke games, kara cancels, cross up tactics, and all that other stuff that the casual player like me just hasn't quite perfected yet. Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily thing that's a bad thing, at least I know I'm getting good practice. I do have a problem with the fact that alot of games, ssf2hdr included, seem to reward aggresive playing styles. I see it in alot of games, just certain game structure aspects that make it advantageous to just be on constant attack. Extremely high throw priority, and super meter being my exhibit A and exhibit B. It's a complain of mine because I'm a defensive player. I like to patiently wait for openings. Ii'll just have to get better at looking for openings though and defending the aggressive play styles I suppose (crossups i still have NO answer for! ahhrrrggg!). I love ssf2thdr and i'm not knocking it by any means, these are just a couple of things that I've been needing to vent about. Thoughts?
Edited by Michael Max on 18. November 2009 19:01
 
reelmojo
Defense alone does not win fights. If Akuma players are just spamming specials to build their super meter then they're leaving you all kinds of openings. When I used to play HDR online I loved it when my opponent picked Akuma because that usually meant he was inexperienced and just thought Akuma was overpowered. I rarely lost to him, and my main is Cammy who is definitely not considered high tier.

The other part of your post I can't comment on too much because I haven't played the game for months. Not that I don't like it anymore, but there's just too many other fighters that I'm playing right now.

I usually win just over 50% of my fights too. Except in BlazBlue. The first week it was out I had about 90%. Then people started getting better and now I can barely ever win a match at all.
 
Wild Tengu
reelmojo wrote:
Defense alone does not win fights.


Sometimes the best offense is a strong defense. But you gotta be careful in ST because of the ridiculous range, priority and speed of throws/grabs, and the ability to tick throw.

But sometimes finding the perfect balance of offense and defense is best, doing too much of only offense or defense can cost you the match. But being able to properly guard against attacks and punish them is a basic fundamental to any fighting game.

Anyways, in ST I play E.Honda, T.Hawk, Chun-Li and Zangief. I also like Guile and Blanka sometimes, with some Dee Jay.
Edited by Wild Tengu on 17. November 2009 19:51
 
http://youtube.com/RunningWildVidya
TurboCro
Mike:

1. Learn to love the rushdown. Once you do, you will enjoy the game alot more.

2.Now that the masses are playing SF4 and Tekken, you really have a concentration of hardcore players which significantly increases your learning curve.

3. The game is also not as balanced as compared to SF3 or 4, which may be throwing you off as well.


Who do you main?

I've been playing SF2 in all its carnations since the 90s, but can still get my ass whipped by an expert player. Also, make sure you're using a wired connection to your PS3, lag will destroy.

I apologize for the outline format, it's an acquired habit from my life as an accountant.Shock
 
NeoGeoNinja
TurboCro wrote:
I apologize for the outline format, it's an acquired habit from my life as an accountant.Shock


OUTLINE FORMAT FTW!...
amusing you should mention your format. I always create headers when I 'post' and lay my text out in a specific format too, usually in easy to read paragraphs... as 'it's an acquired habit from my life as' a Graphic Designer. Old habits die hard, eh?

Ninja
i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv359/NeoGeoNinja/NGNsignatureRev1.jpg
 
Wild Tengu
TurboCro wrote:1. Learn to love the rushdown. Once you do, you will enjoy the game alot more.


Rush down will get you killed in SF. This isn't like KOF where rush down is encouraged.

TurboCro wrote:3. The game is also not as balanced as compared to SF3 or 4


I disagree, I think HDR is way more balanced than SF3 and 4. The only borked character in HDR is Akuma, and he's always banned.
 
http://youtube.com/RunningWildVidya
TurboCro
Wild Tengu wrote:
I disagree, I think HDR is way more balanced than SF3 and 4. The only borked character in HDR is Akuma, and he's always banned.


Predictable jumping in will get you killed in SF2. Too much blocking will also get you killed quickly too due to the throw mechanic. Maybe I used "rushdown" improperly, but there is a bigger penalty for being conservative than aggressive in SSF2T. SF2 = easy to throw and easier to spam safe moves. SF3 has tech-able throws and parrying. SF4 = tech-able throws and "semi-parrying." Let me know your thoughts on why 2T is the most balances, I'm interested to hear.


In the EVO tournaments you have some banned characters. HDR has Akuma. SF3 has Gil. So far no characters banned from SF4, not even Seth.
 
Michael Max
reelmojo wrote:


I usually win just over 50% of my fights too. Except in BlazBlue. The first week it was out I had about 90%. Then people started getting better and now I can barely ever win a match at all.


Yeah, I had beginners luck when I first started and I won over half in Blazblue but now I'm getting schooled. I'm going to learn some combos in practice mode and then go back to the drawing board. BTW i main Tager and my psn name is I2OIO6.
 
Michael Max
Wild Tengu wrote:
[quote]reelmojo wrote:
Defense alone does not win fights.


Sometimes the best offense is a strong defense. But you gotta be careful in ST because of the ridiculous range, priority and speed of throws/grabs, and the ability to tick throw.

Yeah, that's the stuff that usually gets me. I can sometimes read when someone is trying to throw and i use Ryus (who i main) crouching mk to keep them away. But those tick throw traps are rediculous. How do you defend against them?
 
Michael Max
TurboCro wrote:
Mike:

1. Learn to love the rushdown. Once you do, you will enjoy the game alot more.

2.Now that the masses are playing SF4 and Tekken, you really have a concentration of hardcore players which significantly increases your learning curve.

3. The game is also not as balanced as compared to SF3 or 4, which may be throwing you off as well.


Who do you main?

I've been playing SF2 in all its carnations since the 90s, but can still get my ass whipped by an expert player. Also, make sure you're using a wired connection to your PS3, lag will destroy.

I apologize for the outline format, it's an acquired habit from my life as an accountant.Shock


Yeah, I'm just not feeling the rushdown game yet on hdr. But when I play KOFXII I'm fine with it. I can pressure people with a good offensive game. Maybe it's the faster game speed of hdr that throws me off. And I don't have a wired connection, so there is the occasional delay in a match. Anyway I main Ryu. And I used to main charge characters Balrog and E. Honda so I'm still kind of getting used to the difference in timing and zoning for a shotokan character. Thanks for the comments. And I agree that while hdr is a great re-make...SF4 is more balanced!
 
Michael Max
TurboCro wrote:
[quote]Wild Tengu wrote:
I disagree, I think HDR is way more balanced than SF3 and 4. The only borked character in HDR is Akuma, and he's always banned.


Predictable jumping in will get you killed in SF2. Too much blocking will also get you killed quickly too due to the throw mechanic.

Yeah, I've started to learn not to jump in nearly as often and it's made me last longer in my matches. I'm still working on the not blocking too much thing. But I do love it when I can catch them trying to throw me and use crouching mk, sometimes it works 2 or three times because they keep wanting to throw. Its a good low poke move for Ryu. Now I just need to get better at combos so I can immediately combo the hurricane kick from a landed low mk. (Not that that's a difficult combo by any means, just that I usually don't combo well in the heat of battle). But man, the throw priority seems so high sometimes!
 
Wild Tengu
TurboCro wrote:Let me know your thoughts on why 2T is the most balances, I'm interested to hear.


More characters in HDR are viable in competitive play than compared to 3S and IV I think, I mean afterall, they spent a great deal of time tweaking the low and mid tier characters to make them worthwhile in competitive play, and nerfed some things many of the higher ups could abuse.

3S has very messed up character balance, some characters are just too good over others. The other thing in 3S is that parrying can completely lopside matches if you're opponent can parry like a pro, while you can't parry well at all. That pretty much completely puts the match in your opponents favor since there isn't much you can do againest parrying besides going for throws.

As for IV, some characters are way too good in that game, especially Sagat. Most of the top tiers have way too little recovery time after many attacks, giving them lots of safe tools to work with, while characters lower on the chart have fewer safe moves to work with and just don't have many advantages, or just have a terrible Ultra, or an Ultra that's really difficult to connect with it a combo.

I will admit though, IV is way more balanced than 3S... way, way more balanced. The match-up's in IV aren't as onesided as 3S (Or even the original ST).

TurboCro wrote:In the EVO tournaments you have some banned characters. HDR has Akuma. SF3 has Gil. So far no characters banned from SF4, not even Seth.


Akuma is banned because he's is grossly overpowered, and was never meant to be used in actual competitive play. Same goes for Gill in SF3.

Seth in SFIV on the other hand, when played by a player, he's significantly weaker, his damage is rather low, priority is nothing to write home about, and his defense is very low. He's actually balanced for a boss character, compared to Akuma in HDR and Gill in SF3.
Edited by Wild Tengu on 18. November 2009 15:33
 
http://youtube.com/RunningWildVidya
TurboCro
Wild Tengu wrote:

More characters in HDR are viable in competitive play than compared to 3S and IV I think, I mean afterall, they spent a great deal of time tweaking the low and mid tier characters to make them worthwhile in competitive play, and nerfed some things many of the higher ups could abuse.

3S has very messed up character balance, some characters are just too good over others. The other thing in 3S is that parrying can completely lopside matches if you're opponent can parry like a pro, while you can't parry well at all. That pretty much completely puts the match in your opponents favor since there isn't much you can do againest parrying besides going for throws.

As for IV, some characters are way too good in that game, especially Sagat. Most of the top tiers have way too little recovery time after many attacks, giving them lots of safe tools to work with, while characters lower on the chart have fewer safe moves to work with and just don't have many advantages, or just have a terrible Ultra, or an Ultra that's really difficult to connect with it a combo.

I will admit though, IV is way more balanced than 3S... way, way more balanced. The match-up's in IV aren't as onesided as 3S (Or even the original ST).


Brother, parrying is the great equalizer - it doesn't matter who you choose if your opponent is predictable. But it takes alot of time playing to get to that technical level. That's why I believe 3S is more balanced than HDR. SF4 takes an approach that is something in between 3S and HDR. HDR matches are usually quick and brutual, SF4 matches can quickly turn into crouchfests (which unfortunately makes them more boring). As such I feel 3S and SF4 are much more balanced overall than HDR, but HDR is alot more fun to play than SF4. I enjoy 3S as much as HDR, but am not as technically adept.

I also enjoy technical discussions on video games. Cool Thanks for bringing good discussion to the table.

As far as tiers and all this other stuff, who cares? Just get out and play.Headbang
Edited by TurboCro on 18. November 2009 17:47
 
Michael Max
TurboCro wrote:
Wild Tengu wrote:

More characters in HDR are viable in competitive play than compared to 3S and IV I think, I mean afterall, they spent a great deal of time tweaking the low and mid tier characters to make them worthwhile in competitive play, and nerfed some things many of the higher ups could abuse.

3S has very messed up character balance, some characters are just too good over others. The other thing in 3S is that parrying can completely lopside matches if you're opponent can parry like a pro, while you can't parry well at all. That pretty much completely puts the match in your opponents favor since there isn't much you can do againest parrying besides going for throws.

As for IV, some characters are way too good in that game, especially Sagat. Most of the top tiers have way too little recovery time after many attacks, giving them lots of safe tools to work with, while characters lower on the chart have fewer safe moves to work with and just don't have many advantages, or just have a terrible Ultra, or an Ultra that's really difficult to connect with it a combo.

I will admit though, IV is way more balanced than 3S... way, way more balanced. The match-up's in IV aren't as onesided as 3S (Or even the original ST).


Brother, parrying is the great equalizer - it doesn't matter who you choose if your opponent is predictable. But it takes alot of time playing to get to that technical level. That's why I believe 3S is more balanced than HDR. SF4 takes an approach that is something in between 3S and HDR. HDR matches are usually quick and brutual, SF4 matches can quickly turn into crouchfests (which unfortunately makes them more boring). As such I feel 3S and SF4 are much more balanced overall than HDR, but HDR is alot more fun to play than SF4. I enjoy 3S as much as HDR, but am not as technically adept.

I also enjoy technical discussions on video games. Cool Thanks for bringing good discussion to the table.

As far as tiers and all this other stuff, who cares? Just get out and play.Headbang


I agree that hdr matches are quick and brutal. I prefer the pace of a sf4 fight myself because I'm a defensive player overall. But I can see the fun in both.
 
Wild Tengu
TurboCro wrote:Brother, parrying is the great equalizer - it doesn't matter who you choose if your opponent is predictable.


The problem with parrying is you have to tap forward just before an attack connects to parry it. That is such a giant risk in itself, and if you don't know the frame by frame data and exact timing to parry moves, you can really screw yourself over. You can be as good as you think you are with any character in 3S, but if you aren't able to parry on demand, and you're fighting an opponent that can parry like it's 2nd nature, you are really screwed over and you won't be able to do much.

Hell, when I used to play 3S on the PS2, I just turned parry off and played the game like good ol' regular Street Fighter. Pfft

On the other hand, I like SFIV's Focus Attack. It's simple enough that anyone can use (Just press MP+MK, hold it if you want, and you can cancel out of it by dashing forward or backwards), but it adds a great deal of strategic elements to SFIV's gameplay, and it's not game breaking by any means either.

As for HDR, the game had ALOT of work put into it far as balancing goes. It had pro level players on the clock testing everything, and you are given alot of options to customize dipswitches to the game if you prefer some things the way they worked in the original ST.

Now, if you want an un-balanced SF game, look no further than Street Fighter Alpha 3. V-ISM is so ridiculously broken, and there are so many infinites...

If anything, I think SFA3 should get the HDR treatment, and have the game totally re-balanced and tweaked for competitive play. I think it can be done. Alpha 3, despite it's imblanaces, is still one of the most played SF games even today.
Edited by Wild Tengu on 18. November 2009 22:06
 
http://youtube.com/RunningWildVidya
boogiepop
I think Tengu's right about HD Remix being more balanced but at the same time, agree with Turbo's thoughts on parrying. I think the problem third strike has is that, when played at a high level (between two opponents who can parry well) the actual individual traits of the characters come out and things go out of whack.

Let me put this another way: If 3rd Strike had no parries at all, how balanced would it be? I doubt it would be very balanced at all. If you then give everyone parries, which are (essentially) just as good for all characters across the board, how would that make the game suddenly balanced? At most, it make a clear divide between the casual player and the tourney goers.

But to get back on topic, I totally hear what you're saying Max. I play HD Remix and get thrown all the time and even when I know it's coming, I have no answer for it. I think the slight lag when played online makes matters even worse. One thing I've had happen time and time again is Blanka do his little hop forward to bite maneuver on me. I'm sure there's a counter to it, but I don't know what it is. Frustrating. I really like SF2 but that throwing crap really annoys the piss out of me at times. I much prefer SF3's way of handling this.

P.S. I don't believe you can kara cancel in 2. Could be wrong though.

P.P.S. 360 or PS3? If you're on the 360, let's play, shall we? Smile
If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there.
 
TurboCro
Wild Tengu wrote:
The problem with parrying is you have to tap forward just before an attack connects to parry it. That is such a giant risk in itself, and if you don't know the frame by frame data and exact timing to parry moves, you can really screw yourself over. You can be as good as you think you are with any character in 3S, but if you aren't able to parry on demand, and you're fighting an opponent that can parry like it's 2nd nature, you are really screwed over and you won't be able to do much.

Hell, when I used to play 3S on the PS2, I just turned parry off and played the game like good ol' regular Street Fighter. Pfft

On the other hand, I like SFIV's Focus Attack. It's simple enough that anyone can use (Just press MP+MK, hold it if you want, and you can cancel out of it by dashing forward or backwards), but it adds a great deal of strategic elements to SFIV's gameplay, and it's not game breaking by any means either.

On the other hand, HDR had ALOT of work put into it far as balancing goes. It had pro level players on the clock testing everything, and you are given alot of options to customize dipswitches to the game if you prefer some things the way they worked in the original ST.

Now, if you want an un-balanced SF game, look no further than Street Fighter Alpha 3. V-ISM is so ridiculously broken, and there are so many infinites...

If anything, I think SFA3 should get the HDR treatment, and have the game totally re-balanced and tweaked for competitive play. I think it can be done. Alpha 3, despite it's imblanaces, is still one of the most played SF games even today.


Just because you don't like parrying, doesn't make 3S less balanced. Yes its counter-intuitive and ballsy, but this was a new idea by Capcom. It requires a higher level of play, but that was the idea. It's a polarizing idea and many old schoolers (including myself) hated it at the time. But calling it unbalanced because you don't like it doesn't make sense from a balance standpoint.

HDR is great, in fact I play it more often than SF4. But a few tweaks to 2T don't make it more balanced.

Also please remember that balanced doesn't mean fun. Different discussion.Argue
 
TurboCro
boogiepop wrote:
Let me put this another way: If 3rd Strike had no parries at all, how balanced would it be? I doubt it would be very balanced at all. If you then give everyone parries, which are (essentially) just as good for all characters across the board, how would that make the game suddenly balanced? At most, it make a clear divide between the casual player and the tourney goers.

But to get back on topic, I totally hear what you're saying Max. I play HD Remix and get thrown all the time and even when I know it's coming, I have no answer for it. I think the slight lag when played online makes matters even worse. One thing I've had happen time and time again is Blanka do his little hop forward to bite maneuver on me. I'm sure there's a counter to it, but I don't know what it is. Frustrating. I really like SF2 but that throwing crap really annoys the piss out of me at times. I much prefer SF3's way of handling this.

P.S. I don't believe you can kara cancel in 2. Could be wrong though.

P.P.S. 360 or PS3? If you're on the 360, let's play, shall we? Smile


3S w/o parries wouldn't be the 3S - existential question. Smile

The best thing I did for online gaming was getting a cable modem and a wired connection. Solved alot of my frustrations. That said online gaming will inherently never be as good as a local match.
Edited by TurboCro on 18. November 2009 21:50
 
Wild Tengu
boogiepop wrote:If 3rd Strike had no parries at all, how balanced would it be? I doubt it would be very balanced at all. If you then give everyone parries, which are (essentially) just as good for all characters across the board, how would that make the game suddenly balanced? At most, it make a clear divide between the casual player and the tourney goers.


The thing is, parries create a huge gap between players that cannot parry consistently and those that can, which creates some balance issues between the player skill levels. Parrying is just generally too hard for your average Street Fighter player to perform on demand. If it weren't for Daigo's comeback in Evolution 2004, nobody would be dick riding Parrying like they do ever since then.

Hell, I remember reading tons of reviews at the time when SF3 and it's upgrades came out, and they all lashed against parrying. I was quite surprised when some of these same guys were disappointed when parrying wasn't in SFIV.

TurboCro wrote:Just because you don't like parrying, doesn't make 3S less balanced. Yes its counter-intuitive and ballsy, but this was a new idea by Capcom. It requires a higher level of play, but that was the idea. It's a polarizing idea and many old schoolers (including myself) hated it at the time. But calling it unbalanced because you don't like it doesn't make sense from a balance standpoint.


That wasn't really what I'm saying. I'm saying the character balance and match-up's in 3S are not very good, alot of the other fighters end up just being fodder. But the parrying is a problem too. It makes the game considerably less accessible, which is one of the main issues that needed to be addressed which was addressed in SFIV - accessibility. When you have a game that isn't accessible to newer players, it just alienates the newer players from the high skill players that can parry all day and those you can't.

In the old SF games you didn't have to worry about parrying, you had the good ol reliable regular blocking, and you could counter many moves with reversals. In the Alpha games you got moves with certain hitboxes that made them invulnerable in certain places, along with Alpha counters. Those games were alot more accessible compared to SF3.

Course, I still play SF3 (And CvS2, which also featured parrying), but if I parry, it's just out of pure luck and probably not intentional, unless it's a really obvious move I saw coming. But I think SFIV is way better than 3S for sure not only balance wise, but gameplay wise as well.

However IMO, ST+HDR are still the best in the SF series. I think SFIV has the potential to surpass it in Super though.
 
http://youtube.com/RunningWildVidya
TurboCro
Wild Tengu wrote:
I think SFIV has the potential to surpass it in Super though.


We may disagree on some things, but I'm with you on this one.
 
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