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Thread Author: THX-1138
Thread ID: 1841
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There are 91 posts in this thread, and it has been viewed 19039 times.
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KOF XII Fails In Arcades
Shame to read this, kinda throught the Japanese would of loved this no matter what (I know I will). I will get this when it comes out in the UK.
Mr Vengeance
RiKo wrote:
Maybe the problem with KOF XII is that not even all SNK fans like it! (from reading this thread). How can it sell to casual players?

Even though I want KOF 2002 UM much more than XII, I'm still going to buy it on day one, much like most (I'd imagine) of the other SNK fans who are not 100% convinced by it.
I guess it just came out at a bad time, Blazblue is new and fresh,
And i will probably play it more than Kof XII.
I also have been looking forward to play 2002 UM for a while now.
but I'm still gonna buy it of course.


I've just read through the 2+ pages of posts you guys have been putting out over the last day! I thought I'd post my thoughts on some of the topics raised:

1) SNKP bankruptcy over KOFXII underperforming in JP Arcade scene.
2) 98UM & 02UM vs XII
3) Capcom or Arc buying SNKs IP's under bankruptcy etc
4) SNKP not meeting old SNK standards
5) Tengu 'quitting' KOF to go to BlazBlue 'full-time' (amongst other players!)
6) Tengu 'refusing' to play older KOFs (94-03) as they no longer meet his standards ('stale, heavily imbalanced, glitchy' etc)
7) Tengu's sudden reversal of interest in BBlues/Arcs direction considering his open crticism of Arc's GPmechanics being 'broken' and 'obnoxious' as usual! (i.e. 'Well... maybe I over exaggerated on "bullshit gameplay mechanics"'Wink
8) BlazBlue surpassing GGear (in Tengu's opinion)
9) THX being a Troll
10) Merlins preference of a 'New' 2D fighter over KOFXII/XIII
11) RiKos point; Not even all of SNKs fans like KOFXII
12) ECat's hopes; KOFXII vs/> BBlue


1) SNKP bankruptcy over KOFXII underperforming in JP Arcade scene
Like most (I hope!) of the members here, I'm pretty gutted to here that our Japanese friends have not taken all that well to KOFXII in the arcade. I think like most ppl assume, even if we cannot rely on the US/Euro market to appreciate fine games and give them the revenue they need... well, we can always rely on the JP market can't we! In this case, seemingly not. Like I have read there are some small fears over SNKPs future over this issue. Particularly (surprise!) Tengu has been quite outspoken on how he see's this Arcade failure as the final nail in SNKs coffin.

However, like many, realistically, I don't see this as the case as of yet. I also feel that we will all have to simply wait and see how KOFXII sells worldwide across the 360&PS3. I imagine (like myself) that the world over, there are masses of PPL, even non-KOF fans who cannot wait to get this game for their home console and blast away at it online! I for one, am exactly one of those. As you all know, SNK and many companies today, at present, take the console market VERY seriously... more seriously than the Arcade market to be honest. The home console market is where the majority of the money is. It's been widely acknowledged for some time now that while the JP arcade scene is nowhere near dead, it is however definitely affected by superior 'pipeline' home console releases and constantly improving online play facilities. I think a lot of PPL now prefer to simply sit back and wait. The arcade scene today (IMO) is merely a way of accruing additional revenue and indeed it is also a research and marketing vessel for upcoming console versions.

2) 98UM & 02UM vs XII
Tengu raised an interesting point here - that the KOF crowd (persť) are stubborn, in that they cannot leave 02&98 and move onto newer, greener pastures. It's no secret that 'XII' has 'only' as roster of around 20 characters, but this doesn't necessarily make this game inferior to say 02UM with 60+... especially as Tengu has said, no-one even uses them all anyway! Most PPL have a safe team of 3-4 recurring characters and rarely stray from them (in my experience). I haven't played KOFXII yet, but just from seeing some high-level HD match-ups, I find it very difficult to compose myself whilst watching them! This game looks to be AMAZING... and I'm not just talking graphically. It looks set to address issues that non-SNK/KOF fans have with fighting games too, such as 'ropey' sprites, initiation to connection reaction times (i.e. K's HK/D in KOF 99-02, Heiderns HK/D in 98, Ryo's HK/D in 96 etc) and being overly complex to play. PLEASE NOTE... that I LIKE the sprites, and the overly-complex systems on offer... BUT not the horribly prolonged frames of animation wherby the point/frame of contact is well offset (Iori's HK/D is also guilty of this too!)

These kinds of issues are some which some GG/Capcom&SF players cannot see beyond. I mean, look at SF3 launhced in 97 compared to KOF96&97! It seems near inexcusable seeing as games like SS4 & RBS existed at the same time! LIKE KOFXII... would KOF have benefitted from a smaller, finely tuned roster of ultra-animated beauty's like Hon, Kim & Andy from RBS for example? Heh... probably not worth thinking about!

I have both 98UM & 02UM, and while they're fantastic, I'm sure KOFXII will be a nice, new, fresh and HOPEFULLY uplifting 2D fighting experience. I'm all up for new!

3) Capcom or Arc buying SNKs IP's under bankruptcy etc
STE C mentioned Arc or Capcom acquiring SNK staff upon a proposed SNK bankruptcy... From memory, isn't the majority of ArcSys employees made up of old SNK employees from 'back-in-the day'? To be honest, I don't think I'd like to see Capcom (of today!) pick up SNKs IP's. They seemingly haven't bothered developing REAL 2D games since CVS2/MVC2/3S... they 'had a go' at CFJam/CFEvolution, but as everyone knows... "failure". ArcSys seem to be one (alongside SNK) of the only remaining 2D fighting connoisseurs who inject their own feeling of passion into their games. Oddly, if anyone, I'd rather they had the franchises over Capcom, because I think they have the ability to carry things forward, regardless of the success-factor... as opposed to Capcom who always seem to live in the past (see SF2HD & SF4 etc). PLEASE NOTE: Capcom are 'behind' the brilliant TvC BUT didn't actually develop it themselves. That achievement goes to the brilliant '8ing' (of old-school shmup fame!)

4) SNKP not meeting old SNK standards
I here this a lot. I'm going to STRICTLY keep this in KOF terms I think as SNKP have never attempted to better or sequel the likes of LBlade or MOTW. IMO The later KOF games were better than SNKs. I love the eraly KOF's (94&95) but I have to admit I'm no fan of 96-98... which, incidentally, these are usually the main fan favourites. I just don't think they play all that well. I do however love 99 as it offered a different & fresh approach to KOF in general. Still, in gameplay terms... the Earth wasn't set on fire. They kinda stayed at the same standard throughout really up until the incredibly unfinished looking and somewhat miserable, drab 02. FOR ME... it was in more recent years when SNKP created games like KOF03 that the KOF series suddenly took a HUGE turn for the better. Regardless of what has been said about 94-95 being 'stiff' etc 03 was pretty damn superior to the KOF's that had gone before it. Cool-ass new team, nice stage designs, rocking soundtrack, TOP playabilty literally pissing on 02s super-cardboard gameplay. Seriously... 03 is in a different class of KOF altogether... later titles like NGBC & KOFXI reinforce this as they progressed further too. KOFXI could even be the best KOF yet, but for me it has to be 03. Especially considering it was released on the original Neo hardware too! People can only really speculate on how SNK would've done up until now, but sadly we will never know. Seemingly though there are some of us who appreciate SNKPs attempts 100%, but there will always be the ones who will say 'but if SNK had made it'... or 'nothing will ever be as good as' etc. I doubt KOFXII will change that trend.

5) Tengu 'quitting' KOF to go to BlazBlue 'full-time' (amongst other players!)
Well... this is may seem quite the revelation coming from the guy who tends to slate ArcSys in general... HOWEVER I have never once (myself) read anywhere that Tengu has any allegiance to the KOF series?! I think what Tengu is saying that, for him, KOFXII is SNKP's last chance and if they blow-it (i.e. he doesn't like it or indeed the netplay is shit) then - for the time being - he'll walk away. After all, Tengu has already stated his dependency on Online gameplay for his competitive needs and as such, if KOFXII IS good, but online sucks (like SSF2HD!) then BlazBlue will be - more or less - the ONLY other new-age next-gen 2D fighting game option.

6) Tengu 'refusing' to play older KOFs (94-03) as they no longer meet his standards ('stale, heavily imbalanced, glitchy' etc)
I can relate to this, if I was honest. I love playing the older KOF's, BUT I don't take them as seriously as the later iterations. I still take 95 & 99 seriously (and 98!) but the others not so much (I particularly hate 96's gameplay... not nice!). I only really play: 98UM, 02UM, 03 & XI with serious dedication and passion... and 95 & 99 of course Wink For me, all I need is these 6 KOF titles. I can live without the rest... especially 96 & the original 02! (I do still have a wee soft-spot for 94 too if I were honest, but with 95, I can do without)

7) Tengu's sudden reversal of interest in BBlues/Arcs direction considering his open crticism of Arc's GPmechanics being 'broken' and 'obnoxious' as usual! (i.e. 'Well... maybe I over exaggerated on "bullshit gameplay mechanics"' )
Admittedly... this one is a bit of a shocker! Tengu has said though that his criticisms were 'exaggerated', so it seems the tough guy has a soft side after all. To me, it seems that (maybe like myself at some point?) he has experienced BlazBlue and it was much more than just another GGear, which I've said the same myself. I did however say that I was 'open' to that not being the case... seems Tengu is/was too!

8) BlazBlue surpassing GGear (in Tengu's opinion)
This is nice to hear from someone (who like myself) isn't Arcs biggest fan! I must admit, I'm looking forward to acquiring this game and eventually playing online... I'm just not looking forward to being 'raped' by eBays sellers knowing that the likes of P-Asia etc cannot legally ship to the UK/Europe. Very f*cking annoying... like I'm paying £70+p+p ($120!) for BB l.e. for PS3?! I'll wait for a bit. I'm looking forward to having a fresh set of faces to learn too! I'm always a big fan of fresh rosters... size isn't really ever an issue for me as long as the characters are complex enough and the gameplay has enough depth.

9) THX being a Troll
Nah. 100% NOT Troll (guaranteed)

10) Merlins preference of a 'New' 2D fighter over KOFXII/XIII
I understand this. I for one (slightly off-tangent) was not a fan of KOF changing from 'years' to 'numbers'... KOF XI was not a good start to a fresh approach on the series IMO. As for redesigning KOF from the ground-up and calling it No.12?! Well, that's just f*cked. Not a fan I'm afraid.

Still, I think in terms of gameplay and graphics it's a bold step and reducing the characters back to their 94/95 selves is a step in the right direction. I always felt that they had issues with the likes of Robert & Kyo, as they could never truly settle on a version they were happy with. However 'Kusanagi' always made an appearance later on so it seems there was a call for him down the line.

I too think that SNK should make an attempt at some new 2D fighters, BUT I think that NOT making KOF their first new HD nextgen fighter would've been too higher a risk for SNKP.

Still, I don't really fancy a LBlade3 or MOTW2 as the next fighter, but rather something completely new. OR Selfishly, probably a new SShodown or FFury... heh.

11) RiKos point; Not even all of SNKs fans like KOFXII
Admittedly, this may seem concerning, but from what I've heard most SNK 'fans' don't like the majority of the KOF games past 98 anyway! So not much has changed in 10 years IMO. Especially when you get down to the likes of 03 & XI... but also the NESTS games are that well liked either, apart from 02 for some reason, which for me is the worst of the 99-02 series. What a miserable f*ck of a game that is... thank god (or SNKP!) for 02UM as it's absolutely splendid! (it has Heidern in it too, which helps!)

12) ECat's hopes; KOFXII vs/> BBlue
I think KOFXII will stand more than a good chance against BBlue upon it's console release. I'm not sure if I think it looks better as to me, they're too completely different games - graphically and in terms of gameplay too. I mean, graphically... BB isn't really that big of a step beyond GG... of course the same cannot be said of KOFXII as it's all been done completely from scratch. KOFXII looks like a real fighting game for the new generation... I hope it plays that way too!

AS PAUL McKENNA... would say "aaaaand sleep"

Edited by NeoGeoNinja on 19. July 2009 18:51
So much forum drama... you know... screw it, lol I'm just gonna play the game and decide for myself if it is shite or not... whether or not SNKP will go down the toilet, they always have a shot at Metal Slug HD...
Turned out to be an interesting debate anyway. Hopefully KOF XII will do better than expected on the consoles, then we can have a more positive thread!
eccentric cat
Um, Ninja... you're misunderstanding some things. ^^;
Without love, the truth cannot be seen.
The eccentric cat wrote:
Um, Ninja... you're misunderstanding some things. ^^;


wow...but i though KOF XII would fare well...but fear not!
I know that KOF XII will be glorious when it will appear on the consoles...all we need is patience
Far and away my favourite thread for ages.

Most of my favourite games ever are the ones that didn't sell that well... Looks like I'm going to love KoF XII. And don't fret folks, SNK will be just fine whatever happens.

And BlazBlue looks ok, I guess. Pfft

I want to join The eccentric cat fan club. Do we have one yet?

Guys, don't be too hard on Tengu, slagging stuff off is why forums exist. Even if the KoF bashing on an SNK fansite is somewhat baffling. Hmm
Great post Ninja. Long may these epic posts continue! Always interesting to read.

I've also enjoyed this thread. I think it makes things more interesting when there are a good variety of opinions and we have a lively debate. Unlike some other forums things never really get that heated here anyway.

Shiny you should definitely try BlazBlue. I know you're not really an Arc fan which is fair enough but this game might surprise you. It's a very difficult game not to like.
Everything Ninja said makes a lot of sense , he is a man who thinks very carefully about what he writes and before he writes when perhaps a lot of us inc me are guilty of being defeatist or panicking when leaving our comments especially about SNKs future . KOF 2003 is indeed in my book the best since 98 but we are all different thats what makes it an interesting site. I also take back what i say about Capcom hiring SNK staff , as Ninja rightly said they have no interest in making 2D games anymore and i very much doubt they will again. KOF XII is due out they reckon end of August ( in Uk ) and like most of us i will and cant wait to buy it , Im also looking forward to my copy of Blazblue due this week its a thing called faith i just know both games will make my year so lets enjoy them as surley thats what SNK want more than anything ( maybe even more than big profit) they want gamers to love the games. Its like the love of a good women its worth more than all the money you could ever have er if that makes sense.
Wild Tengu
STE C wrote:KOF 2003 is indeed in my book the best since 98 but we are all different thats what makes it an interesting site

YouTube Video

Let's face it, SNK codes worse than your average Mugen creator.
Edited by Wild Tengu on 21. July 2009 02:44
lol ^^

Anyway I never heard of people thinking 03 as a favourite before :S A big problem with the release date is that a lot of serious players are going to pick one game to concentrate on, at least in the US we see the FG community go towards SF4, Blazblue and maybe Tekken 6... there doesn't seem to be a segment of a high-level players wanting to just play KOF XII.
Wild Tengu
Well there is a small pool of players at Arcade Infinity that play KOFXII, but activity from them has seemed to of ceased lately, although one of the guys that plays at Arcade Infinity that won the KOFXII tournament and won his own cabby, had some matches on YouTube he recorded from it.

Seems like KOFXII doesn't hold enough to generate enough interest, the new hi resolution sprites and art direction just isn't enough, nor is the new gameplay mechanics. Everybody is whining how X character isn't on the roster or how X character has a different movelist or is missing moves (And it is true alot of characters got hit hard, having only 1-2 special attacks).

KOFXII is gonna be a fighting game only the most hardcore of fighting game fans will be able to enjoy since it's lacking in everything else.
I personally don't judge games before i play them, so i'm really looking foward to it.
Mr Vengeance
I think THX you've gotta draw at least some judgement on a game before playing it, for example I know that I'm not going to be a huge fan of BlazBlue as I'm not a fan of the developer's previous works, and I'm not going to like Gran Turismo 5 much as I don't consider its precessors to be the best of racing games, etc.

There are always surprises to be had though, but I think that in general there's no harm in pre-judging a game before release if you know what you're talking about, so long as you're fair to it and not jumping to conclusions.

I think myself that KOF XII is going to be a top title, but I think that SNK will refine it engine as the years go by and we'll end up playing KOFs in the future far superior to XII.
Edited by Mr Vengeance on 21. July 2009 14:30
All they are doing with XII is laying the foundations. We won't see the fruits of their labours until KOF XIII or maybe even KOF XIV.
Its at times like this that I just keep hoping that one day SNKP will start developing games for the Neo Geo collectors market. At the rate that AES and MVS games are getting snapped up on ebay I think it might be a not bad small investment converting the newly made games in 2D NG style into AES/MVS carts.
Don't mention the war! - Basil Fawlty
eccentric cat
Shiny wrote:
I want to join The eccentric cat fan club. Do we have one yet?

We should be making a Sata andagi club! X3

Carmen wrote:
Anyway I never heard of people thinking 03 as a favourite before :S

Its always been my favorite, and I've mentioned it before...

I still think its the best/most fun KOF so far~

Wild Tengu wrote:
KOFXII is gonna be a fighting game only the most hardcore of fighting game fans will be able to enjoy since it's lacking in everything else.

Lacking in everything else? Its a pretty solid fighting game all-round. KOF hasn't exactly been the most popular fighting game. Let's face it, its a pretty underrated series. Which is why people would most rather play more popular games, such as Street Fighter IV, Tekken 6, etc.

The problem isn't that people hate KOF XII (and I've yet to hear any complaints about the character roster/movelist, people are more eager to try out the gameplay first), its that KOF isn't very popular to begin with. Sure its SNK's mainstream series, but even then, SNK isn't very popular overseas.
Without love, the truth cannot be seen.
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