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Thread Author: Bullet
Thread ID: 1569
Thread Info
There are 18 posts in this thread, and it has been viewed 16127 times.
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Street Fighter 4 talk, how broken do you find throwing in the game?
Bullet
I haven't seen anything on the site, so I figured I'd raise the question.
For those of you who have played Street Fighter 4 PS3/360 how have you found the game and do you find any of your favorite characters or systems in the game broken?
I personally find throwing in the game to be very much broken, but I'd be interested in your thoughts on the game.

So just to clarify what I personally find broken about throws in SF4 I'll give you some examples:

Many attacks can be prone to throws sure, but when hitting cleanly with a jump in hard kick you should be able to connect with a second hit, be it sweep or a 2 in 1 crouching uppercut to hadoken etc. Or they should be at least forced to block or attempt to block, not throw right after a hard kick connects!!! But that is what is happening.

Typically you'd jump in with a hard kick go to hard sweep it was once a common/ semi guaranteed two hit, unless blocked or some other variation like hard kick to crouching medium kick to fireball or whatever. Regardless, I can take a character like Zangief or Able and just do command throws and rape faces by what I can only describe as interrupting attacks with throws. That's without using focus attack or EX focus/special to take a hit and just throw my way to victory. Using EX on top just makes it more powerful to use a grapple style character.

A friend of mine who I play fighters with thought I was blowing it out of proportion, that is until he played me and destroyed him with throws and I don't even use Zangief, when I beat him only using command throws, that totally disregarded the fact that he'd hit me and was unable to follow up, he got the point. I'm not sure if its an animation thing or hit detection, but getting kicked in the face and throwing right after just doesn't seem right.

As a side note, I also find jumping hard kicks for ken/ryu and others don't hit with the same range for "neck hits" cross ups hit in a smaller area at the end of a kick and don't swing out like previous street fighters, but that's more of a get used to it kinda deal.

Don't get me wrong I'm enjoying the game, but I find throwing so easily abused in the game and its taking away from the depth I was hoping for and to spawn a fully renewed interest in capcom as a fighting game company. I find myself playing a different game than I'm used to and maybe that's a good thing. Maybe I'm supposed to be deathly affraid of people who are good with grapple characters now. Now I'm just hoping to stay away from throws lol. I guess I just assumed that what I can only look at as a severe balancing issue would have been taken care of in the arcades. Not only are throws cutting out attacks, but they are even more forgiving to pull off than ever before. Or is it balancing for throw style characters....

I look forward to hearing from you.
Edited by Bullet on 24. February 2009 14:45
i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii174/Bulletsonnet/opr00FUJ.gif
 
Powerwave
yes bullet i have found throwing in the game can be used too easily, characters like zangief are now too powerfull as there throws are too hard to escape. however this of corse means that its a joy to play when playing as zangief
 
sukotsuto
Regular throws? Counterable by either:

1. Also attempting a throw to tech out
2. Staying crouched
3. Jumping

I've met a few people online who love doing jump in attack then throw (which is actually an old tactic, especially against very passive turtlers), but they're not that difficult to handle. Not that they'd be able to throw if you do any of the three I mentioned. Then, once their throw attempt whiffs, a typical sweep will bring them down, or better yet, a quick combo Grin You can use throws against them by also attempting to throw right after their jump in Pfft

As for high priority command throws, such as Zangief's spinning piledriver, it's a different story. You have to stay out of range by jumping away from command throw attempts or zoning the hell out of him, because spinning piledriver hurts like hell. He's hard, but it's possible to zone him out of his sweet spot throw range and keep him from closing the gap. I did it using Dan and I got a perfect round ;D

Overall, throwing in this game is actually way more balanced than it did was in older games, since in games like Super Street Fighter Turbo HD Remix, low jab > throw is near guaranteed, and it becomes a nasty exploitable loop using Balrog.
 
http://www.abyssalchronicles.com
Carmen
Bullet wrote:
Regardless, I can take a character like Zangief or Able and just do command throws and rape faces by what I can only describe as interrupting attacks with throws. That's without using focus attack or EX focus/special to take a hit and just throw my way to victory. Using EX on top just makes it more powerful to use a grapple style character.


Well I'm not sure about Abel, but the entire point about playing against Gief is that it shouldn't be easy to get in and throw in the first place. He does lots of damage in any game if he can get in close (as can any command throw character)
 
Bullet
Well sukotsuto, aside from the fact that in Street Fighter 4 and Super Street Fighter Turbo HD Remix you absolutely CAN be thrown from a crouch, cause I throw crouched people all the time. If you have either game go to training and set it to crouch and throw till your hearts content. Even Zangiefs 360 pile driver will grab a crouched character. Teching out of a throw is fine, but doesn't solve the problem of a command throws interrupting attacks and its devastation really hurting wake ups and I do know and understand all of the above techniques. I've been playing for quite some time. Still, it doesn't make throws any less of a problem.
Edited by Bullet on 24. February 2009 18:22
i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii174/Bulletsonnet/opr00FUJ.gif
 
sukotsuto
I forgot throws do catch crouched opponents. Nevertheless, regular throws can be stopped by simply crouching and doing light attacks.Pfft

As for Zangief, never ever, ever let him get close enough to do his stuff Pfft Zone the crap out of him, and it's not really a good idea to exchange blows against him in fear of being interrupted with spinning piledriver. Although he has good anti-air properties when using lariat, you can time your jump ins against him and bait him to make mistakes. Zangief cannot throw you immediately as you get up, so you can still do some wakeup attacks with invincibility frames or do an immediate backdash.

Keeping that game plan in mind, I was able to own Zangief players online, like that one I had a perfect round with using DAN Grin My bro also uses proper zoning when going against my Zangief using Rufus and Balrog, which in turn, keeps me in a distance where they'd be able to do their thing (particularly long-range pokes and safe on guard special moves) while Zangief struggles to close the gap.

Fighting Zangief is hard due to his very high-priority moves, but not impossible to stop. Wink
Edited by sukotsuto on 24. February 2009 20:11
 
http://www.abyssalchronicles.com
Bullet
I'm not having any problems winning against Zangief players online , I'm not really looking for advice on tactics. On that I think I do just fine. That's not what this is about. I'm more specifically looking to higher level play and how that'll be effected. I've never found the character (Zangief) to be a problem, as those players tend to forget the basics and concentrate on spinning and throwing and more throwing, lol. I'm just saying that the throws in the game can be abused, more so than ever before, in a Street Fighter game. In my time with the game and the around 490 achievement points, I've gotten out of the game so far, I have found throws a little broken, with their ability to cut out moves or disregard taking a hit and going directly into a throw without EX-ing seems to be a potential problem, that I can see becoming a problem, but not one I have faced or have been frustrated by, as I believe it has not come into prominence with the majority of lower/mid level players yet. But when it does, well that may be a different story and will likely be commented on in the future.

As a side note, most people I play online play it just like its was Street Fighter 2 and are ignoring or not using the focus or EX moves.
Are you guys finding this as well?

If any of you have 360's with Kaz and Atomduck on you lists as both have me on theirs, so if you wanna send me an invite I'd be glad to play. Also my PSN name is the same.
Edited by Bullet on 24. February 2009 21:23
i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii174/Bulletsonnet/opr00FUJ.gif
 
Carmen
Play SF2 if you think throwing is bad in this game... It'll put things in perspective Pfft
 
NeoGeoNinja
Carmen wrote:
Play SF2 if you think throwing is bad in this game... It'll put things in perspective Pfft


YEAH BUT...

SF2 is near enough 20yrs old! So 20yrs on I guess we expect better... especially from the highly anticipated 4th iteration!

Seems Capcom always have issues with their throw mechanics. Tut tut!

Ninja
 
bojan4o
the thing that i dont like sf4 is they changed the look of their faces now ryu doenst look like ryu and ken doesnt look like ken either and all of the characters
2.bp.blogspot.com/-ydrrBL7IMp4/TcJO0vWWqzI/AAAAAAAAAfU/7iKc_MKXqaY/s1600/The+Lone+Wolf.jpg
 
Powerwave
yeah the throw mechanics are annoying in most sf games i think its a little to easy to grab a guy and chuck him. i think alpha games weren't to bad for there throwing.
"Handsome punch-bags never loose battles"
- powerwave the punch bag (bonus kun's lame brother)
 
HexElf
Throws in Street Fighter 4 = just about the only thing keeping the game from being a complete and total turtle fest. With some chars it's the only viable option you have against someone you know will block because while there's nothing to gain if the opponent escapes it's at least not punishable like everything else.
img413.imageshack.us/img413/3883/asuborderwide.png
Asuka does not wait until after school, she will kick your ass right now!
 
https://www.youtube.com/user/HexElf
Klarkus
characters like zangief are now too powerfull as there throws are too hard to escape


True but its actually getting that close to actually do the throw - which, against shoto players is VERY hard.

Throwing isnt bad at all...ok its easy but so is tech'ing. You pretty much know when a throw is going to be pulled out so what do you do? Either lp, lk or tech. So many chars have ways of getting out of throws - sagat DP massive damage, abel roll, fuerte back run, dash. I like the throw system its more 3rd strike meets super turbo and lets be honest, the throws look cool.
img218.imageshack.us/img218/2194/myterrytag.gif
 
TurboCro
Bullet wrote:
I'm not having any problems winning against Zangief players online , I'm not really looking for advice on tactics. On that I think I do just fine. That's not what this is about. I'm more specifically looking to higher level play and how that'll be effected.


I've watched plenty of high-level matches and it doesn't seem to be an issue as teching the throw is easy. It's a matter of reflexes. I feel the tech "pause" afterwards feels awkward. It's more of an issue online, whereby the lag may cause the throw to be untechable (cause the timing will be too late). But I haven't ever encountered that issue in local matches.

My biggest gripe is that the game is geared for turtling - making the matches seem boring (compared to older SF games).
 
TurboCro
Bullet wrote:

I can take a character like Zangief or Able and just do command throws and rape faces by what I can only describe as interrupting attacks with throws. That's without using focus attack or EX focus/special to take a hit and just throw my way to victory. Using EX on top just makes it more powerful to use a grapple style character.

A friend of mine who I play fighters with thought I was blowing it out of proportion, that is until he played me and destroyed him with throws and I don't even use Zangief, when I beat him only using command throws, that totally disregarded the fact that he'd hit me and was unable to follow up, he got the point. I'm not sure if its an animation thing or hit detection, but getting kicked in the face and throwing right after just doesn't seem right.


All about the zone, command throws are not techable but coming from Gief and Abel you know what to expect. My biggest beef with Gief isnt't the grapple commands, but the reach of the spinning clothesline (specifically when using a "bigger" character like Balrog that hits even which croching and attempting a low roundhouse).

Here's the list of Evo 2009 Winners:

http://evo2k.com/

Evolution 2009 Winners
July 24th, 2009 by MrWizard
Ladies and gentlemen, here are your Evo2k9 winners:

Street Fighter IV
1) Daigo Umehara (Ryu)
2) Justin Wong (Rufus, Balrog, Abel)
3) Ed Ma (Akuma, Zangief)
4) Sanford “Santhrax” Kelly (Akuma, Cammy)
5) Long “ShadyK” Tran (Akuma)
5) Eduardo “Vvv scrub” Perez-frangie (Balrog, E.Honda)
7) Takashi “Dan from Japan” Hukushi (Ryu)
7) Ricky Ortiz (Rufus)

Not overwhelmingly Gief or Abel.
 
Klarkus
TurboCro wrote:

Street Fighter IV
1) Daigo Umehara (Ryu)
2) Justin Wong (Rufus, Balrog, Abel)
3) Ed Ma (Akuma, Zangief)
4) Sanford “Santhrax” Kelly (Akuma, Cammy)
5) Long “ShadyK” Tran (Akuma)
5) Eduardo “Vvv scrub” Perez-frangie (Balrog, E.Honda)
7) Takashi “Dan from Japan” Hukushi (Ryu)
7) Ricky Ortiz (Rufus)

Not overwhelmingly Gief or Abel.


Daigo cant beat Shiro's Abel...check out every video of those two fighting...shiro has won more and daigo knows he struggles with a GOOD abel. none of these people know how to use him properly...same with gief. Check out some Itabashi Gief videos...he usually wins daigo aswell. Just the americans who cant beat him Pfft Look how many chars they use...when daigo and all high level jap players stick with 1 char no matter what...americans mix it up too much considering they are playing for money.
img218.imageshack.us/img218/2194/myterrytag.gif
 
TurboCro
Klarkus wrote:
Daigo cant beat Shiro's Abel...check out every video of those two fighting...shiro has won more and daigo knows he struggles with a GOOD abel. none of these people know how to use him properly...same with gief. Check out some Itabashi Gief videos...he usually wins daigo aswell. Just the americans who cant beat him Pfft Look how many chars they use...when daigo and all high level jap players stick with 1 char no matter what...americans mix it up too much considering they are playing for money.


Eh, couldn't find one more current but here's the "top 20 Japanese Players List"

http://known2own....zone-vids/

1. Mago マゴ SG 377,628
2. Ojisanboy おじさんボーイ SG 301,194
3. Umehara ウメハラ RY 289,054
4. RF あーるぇふ SG 252,583
5. Nemo ネモ CH 214,358
6. Bonchan ボンちゃん SG 165,625
7. Shiro 志郎 AB 159,656
8. Radiowave Radiowave SG 157,148
9. Kindevu 金デヴ RU 152,503
10. Uryo うりょ VI 144,818
11. Momochi ももち AK 141,600
12. Tokidokinukinkusu ときどきヌキンクス CH 135,412
13. Tokido ときど AK 129,444
14. Bouya ボウヤ☆★☆ ZA 126,500
15. Iyo 伊予 DH 122,291
16. Rikuson リクそん SG 122,291
17. Kindevu 金デヴ VI 121,440
18. Eita えいた AK 117,135
19. Pie ピエ SG 113,021
20. AC Revenger ACリベンジャー AB 112,930

Not too many Abels there either. I'm not really sure what your argument is regarding Daigo getting beaten, I never said he was unbeatable or that Abel is a bad character. I was just making the point that the throwing is not broken.
 
Klarkus
LMAO that list is fucked up

Iyo beats Mago
Nemo beats Oji
Shiro beats Daigo
Uryo beats bonchan

but i take it this list is just BP/GP leaderboads
img218.imageshack.us/img218/2194/myterrytag.gif
 
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